Legislature(2007 - 2008)BUTROVICH 205

01/18/2008 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES


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03:41:49 PM Start
03:43:21 PM Gas Offtake, Resource Considerations in the Maximum Benefit Equation
05:17:46 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Teleconference --
Gas Offtake, Resource Considerations in
the 'Maximum Benefit' Equation
Alaska Oil & Gas Conservation Commission
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                        January 18, 2008                                                                                        
                           3:41 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair                                                                                                  
Senator Bert Stedman, Vice Chair                                                                                                
Senator Lyda Green                                                                                                              
Senator Gary Stevens                                                                                                            
Senator Bill Wielechowski                                                                                                       
Senator Thomas Wagoner                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lesil McGuire                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson                                                                                                                   
Representative Hawker                                                                                                           
Representative Thomas                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Gas Offtake; Resource Considerations in the 'Maximum Benefit'                                                                   
Equation by Cathy Foerster, Commissioner, Alaska Oil and Gas                                                                    
Conservation Commission                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to consider                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CATHY FOERSTER, Commissioner                                                                                                    
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC)                                                                              
Anchorage, AK                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed work the AOGCC is doing to prepare                                                              
the state for the sale of its North Slope gas.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
KEVIN BANKS, Acting Director                                                                                                    
Division of Oil and Gas                                                                                                         
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)                                                                                           
Juneau AK                                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered technical  questions on using gas as                                                             
fuel.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CHARLIE  HUGGINS  called  the  Senate  Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to order at 3:41:49  PM. Present at the call to                                                             
order  were  Senators   Green,  Wielechowski,  Wagoner,  Stedman,                                                               
Stevens, and Huggins. Senator McGuire was excused.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
^GAS  OFFTAKE, RESOURCE  CONSIDERATIONS  IN  THE MAXIMUM  BENEFIT                                                           
EQUATION                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  said  the  gas  pipeline is  the  focus  for  the                                                               
session, and the  starting point is a discussion  of gas offtake.                                                               
He wants to gather  information to lead to an up  or down vote on                                                               
a gas line.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:43:21 PM                                                                                                                    
CATHY  FOERSTER, Commissioner,  Alaska Oil  and Gas  Conservation                                                               
Commission (AOGCC),  said her statement will  include the AOGCC's                                                               
statutory responsibilities and a  description of the main sources                                                               
for  North  Slope   gas  sales  in  context   with  the  reserves                                                               
classifications of the Securities  and Exchange Commission (SEC),                                                               
which  will  be  important  for  the  Federal  Energy  Regulatory                                                               
Commission (FERC)  open season process.  She would then  list the                                                               
issues  of  concern the  AOGCC  has  about  Prudhoe Bay  and  Pt.                                                               
Thomson, and  she will describe  the process that  operators must                                                               
use to get  a gas sales allowable from the  AOGCC. She provided a                                                               
glossary of acronyms to the committee.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER   said  the  AOGCC   is  called  upon  to   do  the                                                               
responsibilities outlined in a  handout, which include preventing                                                               
waste of  hydrocarbon resources and encouraging  greater ultimate                                                               
recovery of hydrocarbons. AOGCC  does not have the responsibility                                                               
of making money or balancing  the budget, she noted. The reserves                                                               
classifications of  the SEC  are on  page 4.  For a  gas pipeline                                                               
open  season the  FERC  will only  entertain  nominations of  gas                                                               
reserves  that are  recognized  by  the SEC  as  proved. The  SEC                                                               
breaks    down    proved    reserves   into    two    categories:                                                               
proved/developed and proved/undeveloped.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:49:22 PM                                                                                                                    
MS.  FOERSTER  said  proved/developed reserves  are  hydrocarbons                                                               
that can be demonstrated with  reasonable certainty to exist; are                                                               
economically  extractible  with  proven technologies  at  today's                                                               
price; the wells  have been drilled and  the production equipment                                                               
has  been  installed.  "Proved"  means  you  can  get  it  today;                                                               
"developed" means you've  spent the money and all you  have to do                                                               
is turn  on the  valve. Essentially  all of  the oil  reserves at                                                               
Prudhoe Bay  and Kuparuk  are in that  category. The  Prudhoe Bay                                                               
gas cap  would be considered  such once  the gas pipeline  was at                                                               
the front door.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
She said  "proved undeveloped  reserves" means  hydrocarbons that                                                               
can be demonstrated  with reasonable certainty to  exist and that                                                               
are  economically extractable  using proven  technologies and  at                                                               
current  prices,  but  the  wells   have  not  been  drilled  and                                                               
production equipment  hasn't been  installed. BP's  Liberty field                                                               
would be  considered proved undeveloped  reserves, but  once they                                                               
build  the infrastructure  and drill  the  wells, those  reserves                                                               
will  move  to the  proved  developed  category. Pt.  Thomson  is                                                               
considered proved undeveloped. These  are the two classifications                                                               
of reserves  reported to the  SEC and the  ones that will  play a                                                               
roll in an open season.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:50:51 PM                                                                                                                    
However,  Ms.  Foerster  said,  there  is  a  third  category  of                                                               
reserves that  most companies  keep track  of internally,  but do                                                               
not  necessarily  report to  the  SEC.  Different companies  have                                                               
different names for this category and  some even break it up into                                                               
subcategories. This is  for the hydrocarbons that  don't meet the                                                               
SEC's  definitions for  proved developed  or proved  undeveloped.                                                               
For  this discussion,  she called  them potential  reserves; most                                                               
companies use that name.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
She said  reserves in the  potential category have some  level of                                                               
uncertainty. You  cannot demonstrate  to the satisfaction  of the                                                               
SEC that the  reserves exist or you may know  they are there, but                                                               
you  cannot  prove  them to  be  economically  extractable  using                                                               
today's technologies.  The Ugnu and  some of the other  heavy and                                                               
viscous oils  on the  North Slope would  fall into  the potential                                                               
reserves categories. Although they  exist, they have been drilled                                                               
numerous  times;  they  cannot be  extracted  economically  using                                                               
existing technologies. For  the sake of this  gas discussion, all                                                               
of those yet  to be discovered gas fields on  the North Slope can                                                               
be  considered as  potential reserves  and there  are even  a few                                                               
discovered  gas  reservoirs  on  the  North  Slope;  for  example                                                               
Shell's  Burger  prospect in  the  Chukchi  Sea where  they  know                                                               
there's gas, but not how much  or whether it's enough for them to                                                               
commercially develop.  All of those  potential gas fields  may or                                                               
may not exist, may or may not be  big enough; they may or may not                                                               
be economically  extractable using today's technologies.  The SEC                                                               
doesn't  recognize them  and FERC  will not  consider them  in an                                                               
open season.  But if  they are  as plentiful  as people  hope and                                                               
suspect they are,  they will play a very important  part in North                                                               
Slope  gas   sales.  She  said  that   concluded  the  background                                                               
information she wanted to share with  them. Now she would go into                                                               
the substance of her comments.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:53:09 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER  said one of the  pillars of the AOGCC's  mission is                                                               
to  encourage greater  ultimate hydrocarbon  recovery and  with a                                                               
gasline on  the horizon  they'll be doing  the same  with natural                                                               
gas. In fact, that resource  has been protected all along through                                                               
their no-flaring policies and gas disposition procedures.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
She reiterated the  North Slope has three major sources  of gas -                                                               
the  proved   developed  reserve  at  Prudhoe   Bay,  the  proved                                                               
undeveloped reserves  and Pt.  Thomson and  all of  the potential                                                               
reserves in  the yet to  be discovered  gas fields. She  said she                                                               
would  look  at each  one  of  those resources  individually  and                                                               
consider their interdependence.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
The first major gas source is the  gas cap of the Prudhoe Bay oil                                                               
pool estimated to be about 24 tcf.  All by itself it could fill a                                                               
4 bcf/day gas  pipeline for over 15 years. This  resource will be                                                               
proved developed once the gasline  is there. The commission knows                                                               
the  gas is  there,  it's economical,  the  infrastructure is  in                                                               
place and the SEC will consider it during an open season.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:54:39 PM                                                                                                                    
She there are very good reasons  the Prudhoe Bay gas is not being                                                               
sold already; every  bit of that gas has been  and is still being                                                               
put to very  good use for getting  oil out of the  ground and not                                                               
just a Prudhoe Bay, but in other fields across the North Slope.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
It is essential  for oil production from Prudhoe Bay  in a number                                                               
of ways.  Page 5 of  her handout  had a cartoon  illustrating how                                                               
gas  is  used.  First  and  most importantly,  the  gas  that  is                                                               
reinjected  keeps the  reservoir  pressure that  is necessary  to                                                               
move  the  oil from  the  reservoir  to  the well  bore.  Without                                                               
reservoir  pressure,  there  would  be  no  oil  production  from                                                               
Prudhoe  Bay.   About  7  bcf/day  is   reinjected  for  pressure                                                               
maintenance and  before that  gas is  reinjected the  natural gas                                                               
liquids  (NGLs) are  extracted, a  portion of  which are  blended                                                               
with  oil and  sold  down  the TAPS.  This  blending process  has                                                               
already yielded about  half billion barrels of oil  sold and it's                                                               
continuing to contribute to the oil sales volumes.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
A second  huge benefit of reinjecting  the gas is that  it strips                                                               
oil out  of the gas  cap in  a process called  vaporization. This                                                               
process  will yield  about  2  billion of  the  total 13  billion                                                               
barrels expected to be recovered from the Prudhoe Bay oil pool.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:56:23 PM                                                                                                                    
Third,  about  a third  of  a  bcf/day  is  mixed with  NGLs  and                                                               
reinjected for  enhanced oil  recovery (EOR)  in the  Prudhoe Bay                                                               
oil  pool and  its  satellites amounting  to  an additional  half                                                               
billion barrels of  oil. Additional gas and NGLs  are exported to                                                               
other  North Slope  fields such  as  North Star  and Kuparuk  for                                                               
their uses.  Some of the produced  gas, less than a  half bcf/day                                                               
is used  for fuel to  keep the infrastructure  operating. Without                                                               
the production equipment and  other infrastructure running, there                                                               
would  be no  oil  production from  Prudhoe Bay.  Page  6 of  the                                                               
handout illustrated the  contributions that the gas  has made and                                                               
continues  to make  to  oil  recovery at  Prudhoe  Bay alone  (it                                                               
doesn't include gas working in other fields).                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:58:12 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WAGONER  asked her  to expand  on what  the value  of gas                                                               
liquids that are taken out each  day and what their value is when                                                               
they go on the pipeline.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied right  now 395,000  barrels/day of  oil are                                                               
being  produced from  Prudhoe  Bay including  the  NGLs that  are                                                               
blended with it. About 7 or 8  bcf/day of gas is entrained in and                                                               
being produced with  the oil along with a lot  of water, which is                                                               
reinjected into  the reservoir to  maintain pressure.  A majority                                                               
of the gas  is reinjected into the gas cap  for the same purpose.                                                               
The oil rim  in the middle is getting squeezed  from below by the                                                               
water and  above by the gas  to keep the pressure  high enough so                                                               
that the oil can continue to flow.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
She explained  that a good rule  of thumb is for  every barrel of                                                               
oil produced an  equivalent value of heating can  come from 6,000                                                               
mcf/gas.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  said he  was asking about  the value  of sending                                                               
the gas liquids to market.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied that  NGLs are blended  with oil  and being                                                               
put into line. They have the same value as the oil.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:01:43 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what she means by a whole lot of water.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER explained that a  good oil field produces black oil.                                                               
As the pressure drops and as the  oil depletes and if you have an                                                               
active aquifer  that moves in, then  the amount of water  and gas                                                               
produced in conjunction with the  oil increases. So the wells may                                                               
start with 95  or 100 percent oil, but over  time the ratio moves                                                               
the  other way.  Now  a majority  of the  Prudhoe  Bay wells  are                                                               
producing at 60-90 percent water. She  said it is all salt water.                                                               
Water was  taken from the sea  before they had enough  coming out                                                               
of the wells at the onset of production.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:03:22 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  if the  water  volumes cause  the price  of                                                               
processing to go up.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER answered  that the  facilities are  a set  size and                                                               
they were  all full  of oil at  first, but now  they are  full of                                                               
oil,  water and  gas.  It costs  the same  to  process fluids  no                                                               
matter what  is being  processed and  it costs  the same  to pull                                                               
them out of  the ground whether it's oil, gas  or water. But with                                                               
the ratio of 9:1, the processing  cost goes up in relation to the                                                               
barrels of oil produced.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:04:55 PM                                                                                                                    
She went  back to the  graph and  said the dark  green represents                                                               
primary  recovery on  all of  the graphs.  In 1977,  the operator                                                               
expected to  produce a total of  about 9 billion barrels  of oil;                                                               
about 7 billion was going to  be from primary recovery, another 1                                                               
billion from the  water floor and another 1 billion  from the gas                                                               
cycling vaporization process. However,  with essentially the same                                                               
sized reservoir in place,  improved technology, and understanding                                                               
how to make things work  better (like horizontal drilling and gas                                                               
handling expansions)  13 billion barrels  of oil is  estimated to                                                               
be produced  from Prudhoe Bay.  In addition to  vaporization, the                                                               
state has NGL and EOR production to make that total.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
The second graph  showed percent of ultimate  recovery instead of                                                               
barrels. She  said you  get about 25  percent recovery  from most                                                               
reservoirs if  you don't do  anything other than drill  the wells                                                               
and  open the  valves, but  close  to 60  percent of  the oil  in                                                               
Prudhoe Bay will be produced and "That's darn good."                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if those numbers  would increase with                                                               
better technology.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER  replied,  "The  low hanging  fruit  has  all  been                                                               
plucked." However, she  was optimistic about the  13 billion plus                                                               
barrel estimate.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:08:15 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how heavy oil complicates our lives.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER reminded him that the  chart is just for the Prudhoe                                                               
Bay oil  pool, not  for the heavy  oil reservoirs.  She explained                                                               
that  one   of  the  emerging  technologies   is  decreasing  the                                                               
heaviness of heavy  oil by gasifying it, which will  make it more                                                               
mobile and  easier to move  from potential into  proved reserves.                                                               
Also,  when the  gas is  sold  from Prudhoe  Bay, the  unsellable                                                               
commodities will  be stripped off; about  10 - 12 percent  of the                                                               
gas will  be CO2 and  that will be used  to lighten up  the heavy                                                               
oils and make them saleable.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked if there  is any difference  in sequestering                                                               
CO2 in the oil fields than there is in other chosen locations.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied yes;  in most  Lower 48  applications where                                                               
CO2 is truly being sequestered, it  just means getting rid of it.                                                               
When CO2 is used  for EOR it is sent back into  the ground not to                                                               
get rid of it, but rather to see it again.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked  making the assumption that CO2  will be part                                                               
of  extracting  oils  in  the   future,  would  some  communities                                                               
potentially object  because of it possibly  contributing to green                                                               
house gases.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:12:06 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER replied  that she can't predict  what uprisings will                                                               
occur, but  from her experiences with  CO2 and from the  work the                                                               
AOGCC  does with  underground  injection  control in  association                                                               
with  the EPA,  she  is  confident that  the  procedures and  the                                                               
technology  exist  now  that  would  prevent  that  environmental                                                               
concern from  becoming a reality.  The AOGCC makes sure  when CO2                                                               
is injected underground  that it goes where it's  supposed to go,                                                               
stays there and doesn't do any damage.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS said if she is confident he is confident.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:12:53 PM                                                                                                                    
MS.  FOERSTER reflected  if they  believe what  she said  so far,                                                               
their next  question might be how  we will know when  the time is                                                               
right to start  selling the gas. Several things need  to be taken                                                               
into  consideration; first,  most of  the  gas is  being used  to                                                               
maintain pressure  in the Prudhoe Bay  oil pool; so the  later we                                                               
start to  sell the  gas, and  the more  aggressively BP  has been                                                               
producing the oil  in the meantime, the less oil  will be left in                                                               
the reservoir at risk of being  lost due to decreased pressure or                                                               
other reservoir  mechanisms associated  with selling the  gas. So                                                               
later is  better and encouraging BP  to have all the  valves full                                                               
open and applying  their technology in the meantime  is the right                                                               
answer.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Second,  she said  they want  to continue  other EOR  projects in                                                               
Prudhoe Bay  and other  North Slope  fields as  long as  they are                                                               
yielding increased oil  recoveries. So, again, the  later the gas                                                               
is sold and  the more aggressively the oil is  produced, the more                                                               
likely the state will reap their  full benefits before the gas is                                                               
all gone.   But, even after North Slope gas  sales commence, some                                                               
of the  available gas  can be  used for EOR  along with  the CO2.                                                               
Fuel use  is the only  use of gas  in which  it is all  gone. So,                                                               
obviously they will  not want to use gas for  fuel when it starts                                                               
having more value than the oil it is being used to produce.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:15:12 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if gas is lost with reinjection.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied that gas as  fuel is the only  loss that is                                                               
quantifiable. "Fuel shrinkage"  is the term used  by the industry                                                               
for  any loss  through reinjection.  Prudhoe Bay  uses about  460                                                               
mcf/day or the fuel equivalent  of about 77,000 barrels/day using                                                               
the  6 mcf/barrel  of oil  conversion. So  77,000 barrels/day  is                                                               
being  used to  produce about  395,000 barrels  of oil.  In other                                                               
words, every  equivalent barrel of  fuel is used to  produce more                                                               
than 5  barrels of  oil. "So  we're still  doing the  right thing                                                               
with the resource and we will  be for quite some time." And using                                                               
an engineering trend analyses, the  AOGCC predicts the state will                                                               
be doing the right thing with that fuel until after 2030.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI remarked  that  burning 77,000  barrels/day                                                               
seems like a lot.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied, "It is a  lot," but Prudhoe Bay  has a lot                                                               
of equipment that eats fuel.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked  if it's in the  state's best interest                                                               
to burn that much.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER replied  yes; there  is a  5:1 return  on the  fuel                                                               
investment.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS remarked that Alberta  is using about 1 bcf/day for                                                               
its oil sands  and they are projecting using more  than 4 bcf/day                                                               
within the next 10 years.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:19:33 PM                                                                                                                    
She  continued saying  that last  session the  AOGCC completed  a                                                               
reservoir  study with  the assistant  of a  reservoir engineering                                                               
consultant and  the cooperation of  BP and the other  Prudhoe Bay                                                               
owners. It  provided the AOGCC  with insights  and understandings                                                               
of  the Prudhoe  Bay  oil  pool that  will  assist  it in  future                                                               
Prudhoe Bay gas off take allowable decisions.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what that study cost Alaska.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied $570,000.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI went back to  the 77,000 barrels of fuel and                                                               
asked what the cross over point is.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  responded when it  gets to  be a 1:1  ratio (around                                                               
2030)  it  is bad,  but  the  Prudhoe  Bay infrastructure  is  so                                                               
important for  other areas of  the North  Slope that it  might be                                                               
okay  to even  lose  a  little money  there  to  keep the  bigger                                                               
picture on the North Slope going.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if there is  no other way to  get the                                                               
barrels out.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER replied  that the  fuel is  heating the  camps that                                                               
people  live  and  work  in, running  the  gas  compressors  that                                                               
reinject the gas and pump the water to keep the pressure up.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:22:44 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WAGONER attempted an explanation  saying that oil is more                                                               
valuable than gas, so it wouldn't make sense to use it for fuel.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER reiterated that gas  has a lower economic value than                                                               
its heating value;  so that 6:1 is a generous  comparison for the                                                               
gas.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  asked if the  state gets  paid for some  of that                                                               
gas through a charge-back.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:23:57 PM                                                                                                                    
MS.   FOERSTER  responded   that   a  confidentiality   agreement                                                               
prohibits her  from sharing data,  but there is no  right answer.                                                               
The amount of loss depends on many variables.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if there  is enough gas to  build the                                                               
ConocoPhillips  gasline without  significantly impacting  our oil                                                               
production.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied  that is outside her area  of expertise, but                                                               
she has been told that additional discoveries have to be made.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI said  Alaskans  need assurance  the gas  is                                                               
there.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:27:20 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS  said the assumption is  high that in 10  years the                                                               
gas will be there.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  agreed and added that  according to the USGS  100 -                                                               
300 tcf/gas  undiscovered resource is there.  She emphasized that                                                               
AOGCC doesn't dictate to operators  what they must do; rather the                                                               
operator  comes to  them  with  a request  for  permission to  do                                                               
something.  They either  allow  it, disallow  it,  or allow  some                                                               
modification to their original plan.   The AOGCC will not dictate                                                               
to the  operators what volumes of  gas to sell and  when to start                                                               
selling them.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if all  the operators have to agree to                                                               
sell  the gas  and how  the  Prudhoe Bay  Operating Agreement  is                                                               
interpreted as far as selling of gas by individual producers.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:30:24 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER replied that she didn't know.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER said whenever the state  gets a gas line and the gas                                                               
is called  upon from Prudhoe  Bay, it  will be the  right answer.                                                               
She reminded them  of the 24 tcf/gas in the  Prudhoe Bay gas cap.                                                               
Using  the 6:1  gas to  oil conversion,  that means  there are  4                                                               
billion barrels  of oil equivalent  in the  gas cap. As  of today                                                               
there is less than 2  billion barrels of producible oil remaining                                                               
in the Prudhoe Bay oil rim.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
In any major  gas sale scenario, it will be  several years before                                                               
gas sales can commence so there will  be less oil left in the oil                                                               
rim and the operation steps BP  uses to mitigated those loses due                                                               
to  gas sales  will  be  further developed.  Thus,  they will  be                                                               
looking at  losing a small fraction  of a much smaller  number in                                                               
exchange for getting 4 bcf/barrel equivalent from the gas.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
The  state will  want  to  sell whatever  volume  is needed  from                                                               
Prudhoe Bay whenever  it is needed to get the  gasline going. The                                                               
right answer  assumes that the Prudhoe  Bay operator aggressively                                                               
produces as  much oil and  puts in  place as much  mitigation for                                                               
losses as possible before the gas sales begin.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:32:39 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if  operators are  aggressively doing                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied yes.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:34:48 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  her  to  characterize AOGCC's  relationship                                                               
with operators on the North Slope.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied that  the AOGCC  is highly  professional so                                                               
it's important to keep up  a good relationship with the industry.                                                               
They  can't be  best  buddies, however,  because  it is  policing                                                               
them.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if that is working.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied her sense is that it is working.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:37:18 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked when the value of gas and oil will cross.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied that she  hadn't done a projection  of when                                                               
that would happen, but the state  will be selling both for a long                                                               
time.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  said he  has heard from  multiple sources  that at                                                               
about 300,000 barrels  the challenges of moving  oil through TAPS                                                               
might be beyond the economics.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:38:27 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  WAGONER interrupted  that  he  had talked  to  a lot  of                                                               
people with pipeline  experience and 300,000 is  not a reasonable                                                               
number.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  added that pump  stations that have been  shut down                                                               
can be reactivated to get a longer life out of the pipeline.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS said  UAF  has a  task force  that  is working  on                                                               
reconfiguring what goes through TAPS.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:39:02 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER  said the  second major gas  source is  Pt. Thomson,                                                               
which is estimated  to be 9 tcf  and this by itself  would fill a                                                               
4/bcf/day pipeline for  another six years assuming  no decline in                                                               
production.  This  resource will  be  classified  by the  SEC  as                                                               
proved  undeveloped, but  it will  be considered  during an  open                                                               
season.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
"So,  what are  our concerns  at  Pt. Thomson?"  she asked.  Most                                                               
people refer to it as a  gas field, but in engineering vernacular                                                               
it  is a  gas  condensate reservoir  or  a retrograde  condensate                                                               
reservoir and  under AOGCC definitions  in regulations, it  is an                                                               
oil  field. She  referred  them  to the  "Role  of  the AOGCC  in                                                               
Approving  Pool   Rules  for  Pt.  Thomson   Field"  for  further                                                               
elucidation. The  handout said looking  at the  technical issues,                                                               
not  getting into  financial concerns  or  politics, cycling  the                                                               
gas until  the liquids have been  recovered is always the  way to                                                               
achieve greater ultimate recovery and  prevention of waste from a                                                               
gas condensate reservoir.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  asked   her  to  rephrase  that   so  he  could                                                               
understand.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked her to define what "liquid" is.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:41:19 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER  answered in a  gas condensate reservoir all  of the                                                               
fluids are  in a gaseous phase.  As the pressure drops,  some oil                                                               
falls out and  some of it will  fall out in the well  bore and in                                                               
the production  facilities as the  gas is produced. Then  the oil                                                               
doesn't come to  the surface; it stays in  the reservoir forever.                                                               
It tends to drop out at the  lowest pressure which is next to the                                                               
well bore hole  where it plugs up the pore  spaces making it hard                                                               
for the gas to come out.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
She said  cycling is  producing gas,  stripping off  the liquids,                                                               
putting it  into a sales  line and  running the gas  through some                                                               
compressors and sending  it back down into the  reservoir so that                                                               
the pressure stays high enough that the oil doesn't drop out.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:43:17 PM                                                                                                                    
She said there are two  important considerations in producing Pt.                                                               
Thomson  as  a  gas  reservoir  without  cycling  first.  One,  a                                                               
significant portion of the liquid  hydrocarbons will drop out and                                                               
be lost in the reservoir  forever; two, these dropped out liquids                                                               
will most  likely cause increased  operating costs  and decreased                                                               
gas recovery  from the gas wells  as they drop out  in and around                                                               
the well bore and plug up the pore spaces.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:43:44 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  if  there would  be a  way  to recover  the                                                               
liquids that drop out even if it wasn't cost effective.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER  replied  that  studies  on  retrograde  condensate                                                               
reservoirs  indicate that  even if  you go  back and  try to  fix                                                               
things by injecting  something to pressure up  the reservoir, you                                                               
still won't get the liquids back.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:44:35 PM                                                                                                                    
Since  the  AOGCC  is  charged  with  insuring  greater  ultimate                                                               
recovery  and  prevent  hydrocarbon   waste,  she  said  publicly                                                               
available   estimates   of    recoverable   liquid   hydrocarbons                                                               
associated  with the  gas  a  Pt. Thomson  vary  from  200 -  400                                                               
million  barrels depending  upon  the source.  Using Prudhoe  Bay                                                               
logic, losing this resource would be  a small price to pay to get                                                               
the 9 tcf  or 1.5 billion barrels of equivalent  from selling the                                                               
gas.  However, we  have time,  right  now, to  be developing  Pt.                                                               
Thomson, cycling  the gas,  and recovering  the liquids.  If they                                                               
were doing that, they could have  both the liquid recovery in the                                                               
interim and the gas sales when the pipeline is ready.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
She  stated,  "Don't let  me  under-emphasize  the size  of  this                                                               
liquid  resource;  200  - 400  million  barrels.  That's  another                                                               
Alpine  field." If  they were  to recover  those liquids  through                                                               
cycling in advance  of gas sales, the second  concern of damaging                                                               
the near well bore area would also go away.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  said it's important  to understand that  because of                                                               
ACES the state shares the  cost of interventions that will likely                                                               
need to  be done over  and over again to  move the liquid  out of                                                               
the way  and enable the  gas well to continue  producing. However                                                               
for  fair   and  balanced  reporting  cycling   will  likely  add                                                               
significant  capital costs,  which again,  the state  would share                                                               
under ACES. "It's a trade off that you have to realize."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked what  was her one  greatest success  and one                                                               
worst  regret in  her  last  three years  in  the AOGCC  decision                                                               
making process interfacing with the industry.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:47:24 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. FOERSTER replied one of the  biggest successes she has had is                                                               
developing  revised regulations  in fields  where technology  and                                                               
operating  conditions have  changed  - like  safety valve  system                                                               
regulations,  gas  storage  reservoir regulations  and  abandoned                                                               
well regulations. She also was  particularly proud that AOGCC and                                                               
the operators were able to negotiate  to do the Prudhoe Bay study                                                               
for a  half million dollars. The  DNR proposed to do  a study for                                                               
$10 million.  The biggest  regret is that  the AOGCC  hasn't left                                                               
Juneau  with "every  single one  of you  guys" feeling  confident                                                               
that  they are  taking care  of their  responsibilities to  their                                                               
satisfaction.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS asked her to  explain the capital cost in cycling                                                               
that the state would share.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  answered after stripping the  gas you take it  to a                                                               
compressor for  reinjection and  burning the fuel  to do  that is                                                               
what she was referring to.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:50:22 PM                                                                                                                    
She said the AOGCC  is in the early stages of  a study similar to                                                               
the  one it  conducted  for  Prudhoe Bay  to  understand the  Pt.                                                               
Thomson resource.  The Pt. Thomson evaluation  used by ExxonMobil                                                               
is more complex than what AOGCC  used with BP for the Prudhoe Bay                                                               
study, so she anticipated it taking another year or so.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
She said  for example, ExxonMobil  has taken  different positions                                                               
over time on  whether or not to cycle first  for liquid recovery.                                                               
Their  latest  official   position  is  not  to   cycle.  At  the                                                               
completion of  their study,  AOGCC expects  to know  enough about                                                               
Pt.  Thomson  to decide  whether  or  not  they agree  with  that                                                               
position. Even  without results of  the study, she can  tell them                                                               
that time is the important thing  to keep in mind at Pt. Thomson.                                                               
Right now  we have time to  develop the field, but  the longer it                                                               
remains undeveloped, the less time they will have.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:51:43 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WAGONER asked her to  explain pressures at this reservoir                                                               
because the pipeline will be pressurized at 2,500 psi.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied  that the gas would have to  be pressured up                                                               
to about  10,000 psi  to get  it down into  the reservoir  at Pt.                                                               
Thomson - pretty heavy metal and high tech - real expensive.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what role  does a successful pipeline play in                                                               
further development of Pt. Thomson.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER replied  that there  are 9  tcf/gas to  be produced                                                               
from Pt.  Thomson and that  won't happen without a  gas pipeline.                                                               
Some fraction  of the 200  - 400 million  barrels of oil  will be                                                               
extracted  simply through  gas  sales,  but it  will  be a  small                                                               
fraction;  a larger  fraction would  be realized  if they  cycled                                                               
first.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  asked  if  she  had seen  any  estimates  on  the                                                               
infrastructure needed to get the oil to market.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER  replied  first  they  would have  to  put  in  the                                                               
drilling and  production facilities and  then they would  have to                                                               
drill the wells.  If you're drilling into a  10,000 psi reservoir                                                               
it  will  be  very  expensive.  Developing  Pt.  Thomson  has  an                                                               
enormous capital  cost. She  said a pipeline  now goes  to Badami                                                               
and it's not  that far from Pt. Thomson; so  a small oil pipeline                                                               
would connect  it and  Badami has spare  capacity. In  fact, it's                                                               
empty right now.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:53:56 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked if  you factor  out gas  on Pt.  Thomson, is                                                               
there a profit to be made on oil.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied  that she didn't know. The  physics say that                                                               
the only to  get the majority of  the oil is to cycle  it. To the                                                               
extent the  statutes allow  the AOGCC  to consider  the economics                                                               
they will. Money is not part  of their statutes, but they have to                                                               
consider some economics for realistic recovery.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:55:24 PM                                                                                                                    
She went on to talk about  potential gas fields - the third kind.                                                               
The  USGS  and  the  MMS  estimate the  potential  for  over  150                                                               
tcf/conventional  gas on  the North  Slope and  she related  that                                                               
Anadarko is exploring for gas this season.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     The sooner we find gas fields  and the more gas we find                                                                    
     the less  pressure there will  be to accept  oil losses                                                                    
     at either Prudhoe Bay or  Pt. Thomson and that gas will                                                                    
     be  necessary to  give the  gas pipeline  the longevity                                                                    
     for our  kids and  our grandkids  and probably  for the                                                                    
     long term  viability economically. So please  keep this                                                                    
     third and very important gas  source in mind as we move                                                                    
     through North Slope gas decisions.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  related that an Anadarko  representative said they                                                               
may not be able  to make the first open season  and might have to                                                               
ask for one.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied that she didn't  know the timing of the open                                                               
season or what the exploration would yield.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:57:05 PM                                                                                                                    
She said the  last topic she was asked to  address is the process                                                               
by which an  operator receives a gas off take  allowable from the                                                               
AOGCC. Two scenarios trigger the  AOGCC to take action. The first                                                               
is response to a petition  from an operator or another interested                                                               
party; the  second is proactive  only to prevent  imminent waste.                                                               
In  the  case  of  North  Slope  gas  sales  there  is  no  sales                                                               
capability and no  imminent waste. Thus there is no  need for the                                                               
commission to act  on Pt. Thomson. Therefore, it  will respond to                                                               
a petition from the Prudhoe Bay and Pt. Thomson operators.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI took issue with  the statement that there is                                                               
no  sales  capability  and  therefore   no  imminent  waste.  The                                                               
equivalent of  77,000 barrels of  oil and  he heard on  the radio                                                               
that 25  percent of  all green  house emissions  come out  of the                                                               
North Slope.  He asked  the value of  460 mcf/gas.  [Kevin Banks,                                                               
Acting Director,  Division of Oil  and Gas, DNR, looked  into the                                                               
answer.]                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied  an enormous value. "You can  say that we're                                                               
wasting the gas  or you can say  that we're using the  gas to get                                                               
the oil." The AOGCC  looks at it as using the gas  to get the oil                                                               
and doesn't consider it waste.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:59:12 PM                                                                                                                    
An  existing pool  with  rules is  in place  at  Prudhoe and  the                                                               
existing off take allowable was set  in 1977 at 2.7 bcf/day. When                                                               
the gas  pipeline gets put in  should the operator want  a larger                                                               
allowable,  it would  have to  request a  change to  the existing                                                               
Rule 9,  which set  that off  take. However,  if 2.7  bcf/day off                                                               
take  including fuel  is enough  to export  to other  fields, the                                                               
Prudhoe Bay  operator will not  have to ask AOGCC  for permission                                                               
to do anything.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if Alaskans should be nervous about this.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER  replied  no.  For an  undeveloped  pool  like  Pt.                                                               
Thomson with  no rules in  place, a  gas off take  allowable rule                                                               
would  be part  of the  greater  process of  determining all  the                                                               
rules by  which the pool would  be developed and operated  if the                                                               
operator wants to do anything else besides use it for fuel.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  if the  process would  evolve based  on the                                                               
circumstances in the pool.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied that is  exactly right. She  explained that                                                               
the  operator would  look at  the  AOGCC regulations  and to  the                                                               
extent  that  they suit  their  needs,  they  don't ask  for  any                                                               
special  rules. If  they  need  a special  exemption  to set  the                                                               
surface  casing higher  or lower  or  to space  the wells  closer                                                               
together or  something like  that, they ask  for a  special rule.                                                               
Pt. Thomson would have  to go to the AOGCC for a  gas off take if                                                               
the operator  wants to  do anything other  than reinject  the gas                                                               
and use it for fuel. In  either case, AOGCC technical staff would                                                               
gather  sufficient information  to make  recommendations and  the                                                               
commission would hold a hearing.  They would probably have all of                                                               
the information they would need for  Prudhoe Bay by virtue of the                                                               
Prudhoe  Bay  study  completed in  2006.  Assuming  a  successful                                                               
completion of  the Pt.  Thomson study, the  same would  hold true                                                               
there. The  information in the studies  has a good four  or five-                                                               
year shelf life.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
At  one of  these hearings  the operator,  AOGCC staff  and other                                                               
interested parties  would present  all of the  relevant technical                                                               
information  needed to  reach a  decision.  The commission  would                                                               
then make a ruling. At such  a hearing, the information needed to                                                               
make the  decision would  become part of  the public  process and                                                               
would no longer be confidential.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
5:04:29 PM                                                                                                                    
She closed  with a few  take-home messages.  One, by the  time we                                                               
get a  gasline, the oil volume  left at risk at  Prudhoe Bay will                                                               
not be sufficient to derail a  pipeline. So the right answers for                                                               
timing and sales  volume are within reason,  whenever and however                                                               
much. In  the meantime,  however, the  Prudhoe Bay  operator must                                                               
continue aggressive production, avoid  major unplanned shut downs                                                               
and  developing  and  implementing  strategies  to  mitigate  oil                                                               
losses.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Second, she  said at Pt.  Thomson, we  have the time  to minimize                                                               
the oil losses  and the operating cost tax  deductions that would                                                               
result from gas  blow down. "But every day that  goes by with Pt.                                                               
Thomson undeveloped  whittles away  at that opportunity;  we lose                                                               
our  choice." Third,  we need  new gas  discoveries for  the long                                                               
term success  of the  gas pipeline and  to help  further diminish                                                               
concern  over oil  losses at  Prudhoe  Bay and  Pt. Thomson.  So,                                                               
these new discoveries need to be encouraged.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:05:51 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked how successful  aggressive oil  recovery has                                                               
been.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER answered in her opinion  she is pleased that we have                                                               
a set of world class owners at Prudhoe Bay.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Among  the three  key  major  owners -  ConocoPhillips,                                                                    
     ExxonMobil and BP - they  are leaders in developing and                                                                    
     implementing  technology world  wide and  all three  of                                                                    
     those  companies  recognize  Prudhoe  Bay  as  a  major                                                                    
     asset.  So they  are putting  the full  force of  their                                                                    
     technological resources to bear in developing Prudhoe.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
She  reiterated that  60 percent  recovery from  Prudhoe is  very                                                               
good and it has  a lot more life left. So,  it would be incumbent                                                               
upon the operators  to continue to make good  investments and use                                                               
good technology.  It will also  be incumbent upon the  AOGCC, DNR                                                               
and DEC and the legislature to  make sure the operators know they                                                               
must keep doing that.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
5:07:58 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS said Alberta claims  to have 175 billion barrels of                                                               
known  recoverable reserves  -  second to  Saudi  Arabia, and  by                                                               
their numbers,  Alaska has about  4 billion. So, at  a production                                                               
cost of  $24/barrel it seems  that their challenge  of extracting                                                               
that oil may  be greater than ours. He asked  if she is confident                                                               
that heavy oil production will happen in Alaska.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER replied  that easier  to get  heavy oil  is already                                                               
being developed at  West Sak, Schrader Bluff,  Orion, Polaris and                                                               
some of the  equivalents at Prudhoe Bay, but as  you get into the                                                               
more  viscous  oils,  the current  technology  coupled  with  the                                                               
current  costs  of  doing  business on  the  North  Slope  become                                                               
problematic. It's a combination of  the two. Viscosity is related                                                               
to temperature, too, so the cold  up there doesn't help. If these                                                               
heavy oil resources  were in the Lower 48 they  would be depleted                                                               
already. However, she had some confidence  that it is such a huge                                                               
prize that it will continue to be figured out.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
She also commented when he talks  about how huge the Canadian tar                                                               
sands are and how our little  2 or 4 billion barrels doesn't make                                                               
the international  scene, to take  the 2 billion barrels  left at                                                               
Prudhoe  and compare  it to  the biggest  discovery in  the North                                                               
America in  the last 10  years - Thunder  Horse in the  off shore                                                               
Gulf of Mexico. It  was a huge discovery and at  its onset it was                                                               
1 billion  barrels. So the 2  billion barrels left at  Prudhoe is                                                               
twice  as big  as the  biggest discovery  that has  been made  in                                                               
North America in the last  10 years. "So," she admonished, "don't                                                               
undersell the value of that huge resource we have up there."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:12:04 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if her  confidence level on us recovering the                                                               
heavy oil with some revenue satisfaction is high or low.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied it is  high, but not  before a gas  line is                                                               
built.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:12:31 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS  said  Pt.  Thomson  is  in  litigation,  but  the                                                               
question remains  will its development  meet the timeline  of the                                                               
gas pipeline in the window of 10 - 15 years from now.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  replied yes, but  with the caveat that  she doesn't                                                               
know  how  long the  litigation  will  last. Assuming  reasonable                                                               
people  make reasonable  decisions, it  will happen  in the  time                                                               
line we  have. Without litigation  her confidence level  goes way                                                               
up. She said the AOGCC still has a year to go on its study.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Kevin Banks what the answer is.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:14:12 PM                                                                                                                    
}KEVIN  BANKS,   Acting  Director,  Division  of   Oil  and  Gas,                                                               
Department of  Natural Resources (DNR){  said the per  barrel oil                                                               
equivalent  is 6  mcf/gas  for  each barrel  of  oil. At  today's                                                               
$8/mcf gas  and $90/barrel  oil, the ratio  is different.  So the                                                               
460 mcf/gas  that is  being used  for fuel  costs less  than $3.6                                                               
million/day, but it is producing $35 million worth of oil.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if the  state is compensated  for the                                                               
fuel that is burned.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BANKS replied no; and it's  called fuel gas. It's used on the                                                               
lease and  as a consequence  the state doesn't receive  a royalty                                                               
for it nor is it subject to tax.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  said, "But in  a way we are  compensated because                                                               
12.5 percent of that production is ours."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  said  his  point  was  that  there  is  no                                                               
incentive for efficient use of that gas.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. BANKS said  you can't argue with the value  of gas versus the                                                               
value of oil production you get for it.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI said  there is  no incentive  for efficient                                                               
use of that gas which is  the equivalent of 77,000 barrels of oil                                                               
a day. "Maybe that is being  used at optimal efficiency and maybe                                                               
we can  be doing  it for  half that and  saving a  couple million                                                               
dollars per day."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER  responded that  every month  every operator  has to                                                               
submit a  gas disposition report to  the AOGCC about all  the gas                                                               
they use.  An engineer and  a statistician look at  those reports                                                               
every  month. If  the operators  do something  that looks  out of                                                               
line,  they make  them  come  in and  explain  why.  If they  are                                                               
inefficient  they  get fined.  A  new  compressor might  be  more                                                               
efficient, but  the stuff  they got  up there  was the  best they                                                               
could get when they put it up there.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  said  he   appreciates  that  is  what  is                                                               
happening.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further  business to  come before  the committee,                                                               
Chair Huggins adjourned the meeting at 5:17:46 PM.                                                                            

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